blackcat333_99 ([info]blackcat333_99) wrote,
@ 2009-06-13 14:59:00
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Current mood: curious
Entry tags:spn

Some musing and an opinion question about SPN after watching 4.04 again -- context for the entire season:



Watching the re-run last night, I am stuck on wondering this question: just when did the angels -- of the Zachariah ilk -- decide to actively use Sam to further their agenda? I cannot for the life of me decide. When I look at 4.21-4.22 I'd say that Zach's agenda was to use Sam pretty much all along, but really Zach didn't reference a specific point in time when he told Dean that he figured the Seals were gonna get broken, so might as well bring on the Apocalypse and go for the Big Win. I figure it obviously got to this point by at least 4.09/10, or else Ruby at the least would have been smote instead of let off the hook by Castiel and Uriel.

But. 4.03-4 Cas was giving Sam a warning through Dean to cease and desist his extra-curricular activities with Ruby. "Stop it... or we will."

And 4.07 again Sam was specifically warned against using his demon powers. We could say that Uriel and Castiel were simply not in the loop, were considered those "grunt soldiers" who might have rebelled (in Zach's estimation) if they had been told the truth. But then... the fact remains: Sam was given clear warnings by the angels to not do what he ended up doing, thereby breaking the final seal. Sam was allowed the choice to proceed anyway, but when I look back at these earlier episodes... any outrage that I initially felt in 4.21-22 at Zach and Castiel's meddling with Sam, opening the door to the panic room and probably changing Dean's phone message, is GONE. Because it seems clear that at that point Zach in particular is working off 1) Bigger Picture concerns, he's going for the big win (which is an ironic mirror of Sam doing things that end up with a body count as collateral because he's going for the big win against Lilith), and 2) Sam HAD his chance -- multiple times, no less -- to choose a different course. And he chose to put himself exactly where he ended up. Yes, the final set-up was rigged against him, as it were, but the whole game wasn't.

So, now I can't decide whether Zach really REALLY planned on setting up Sam all along, or by virtue of having to allow Sam free will saw the choices Sam was making and decided at that point Sam might as well be useful either way. Seems to me there's a decent argument to be made on behalf of Zach initially thinking:

1) Sam quits Ruby, gets back on the straight and narrow, and Lilith thus cannot be killed by him, therefore the final seal cannot be broken and Lucifer stays put. End result: Good guys win. Or:

2) Sam doesn't listen, continues on his path and kills Lilith, Lucifer is released and brings the Apocalypse, the Angels kick some ass and restore order. End result: Good guys win.

Either way -- Sam, as a human, of his own free will is still master of his own destiny. And ended up creating his destiny through his own choices. Angels, as agents of Fate, merely used those choices to make what will be -- be. End result is what they're looking at.

Oh, and the Dean side of the equation:

1) Either Dean exerts enough influence on Sam to persuade him from his road to hell, thereby giving the good guys the win, ergo end result: The man who started it did end it; or:

2) Dean steps up to the plate AFTER Lucifer's gotten loose and somehow ends things ... somehow. End result: The man who started it has to end it. This one is the only possibility that's still in the air right now, S5 fodder. And somehow I think it's probably going to be as *cough* easy to achieve as it was to turn Sam from his slippery slope. Door No. 2 is the more complicated option with both boys, and SPN has never been about letting things happen the easy way.

Guess which set of options probably looked more achievable, back when Dean's first pulled from grave.

Umm... I may have gotten off track a tad from my original question, but it's still buried in there, right? *squints at post*

Hmm. What am I missing?


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[info]gigglingkat
2009-06-13 12:25 am UTC (link)
I'm there with you. I also wonder about Dean's resurrection. Specifically, WHY did the angels arrive too late to save him? Was there really nothing to it other than Hell fighting back - or were the order conveniently delayed to kick the whole thing off?

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[info]blackcat333_99
2009-06-13 12:47 am UTC (link)
So many questions. It's hard to figure out where that line is with the angels, whether I'm subconsciously looking for ways to give them the benefit of the doubt because ANGELS, you know? Supposed to be the good guys, even with shades of grey. On the other hand... there ARE reasons within the text to not just write them off as monsters equal to demons (in my book) despite how there are shared similarities in pragmatism and manipulative behavior. I dunno. They clearly are not saints by any means, but the facts seem to put a whole lotta ambiguity in just how ruthlessly manipulative vs. pragmatically manipulative they are. Which may be splitting hairs, but it's a distinction that counts in how I view them.

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[info]erinrua
2009-06-13 01:50 am UTC (link)
What confuses me, about all this, is that "the angels" are clearly a divided camp. Initially, Castiel was all about obeying God and doing the Right Thing, and when he learned about Uriel and the angels who'd sided with Uriel ... it was treason. It flew in the face of everything Castiel believed he was fighting for, and he felt Uriel's pro-Lucifer stance was a direct voilation of and disobedience to God's Will.

Now, Zachariah admitted that he's kept the Truth from the grunt soldier-angels on the ground because, like Castiel, they'd react negatively and be outraged. But what I wonder is, did all this perhaps start out as a battle for Good ... and somehow Zachariah usurped the purpose of the battle. What if there were originally different superior officers, and somewhere outside the grunt soldier's field of vision, there was a coup in the chain of command, and the pro-Lucifer factions took control?

Which would sort of make more sense than setting up an entire war while duping the Heavenly soldeirs all along...

... Unless of course, Zachariah, with Uriel and others like him, set this up from the beginning, and the angel-on-angel violence was simply damage control. Some angels learned the truth of the war and had to be silenced.

Ow. My head hurts. But I do wonder if this was a set-up from the moment Heaven laid seige to Hell, or if somehow Zachariah and his ilk usurped and took over command of the war.

Anyhow, point being, there are angels and there are angels, and we know there is division in Heaven. I honestly thought there was civil war in heaven, when Anna first showed up, and I'm still curious if there is some struggle we don't know about, between God's angels and the pro-Lucifer contingent.

Ima go lay down now, I think I sprained my brain ....

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[info]blackcat333_99
2009-06-13 05:28 pm UTC (link)
*hands you an ice-pack for your brain*

And there's this to think about too, from Sin City:

Casey: Do you believe in god, Dean? I'd be surprised if you did.
Dean: I don't know. I'd like to.
Casey: Well, I don't see how you and your god, have done such a bang-up job. War,genocide -- it's only getting worse. This past century, you people racked up a body count that amazed even us.

It's our turn now, and we're gonna do it right this time.

I think it's interesting that we can see a parallel in DemonCasey's view on the matter and Zachariah. Casey's attitude seems to be that God has left the building, look at what's happening among humans. And "it's our turn now, and we're gonna do it right this time" has a definite echo of Zach's agenda in how he thinks HIS plan is the way to go, the arrogance that they'll win and do some kind of purge in the process...

With the different factions of angels, we have to outright rebels like Uriel -- they're clearly in Lucifer's camp. I tend to think without more evidence that they represent more the type of "a few bad apples in every barrel" than a group with enough numbers and influence to usurp Heaven itself. Castiel's group seem to be the majority, angels with faith who to the best of their knowledge are carrying out what they believe is God's will. Zachariah's group is the hardest one to get the handle on. Do they have faith still, or is it more of the "when the cat's away the mice will play" belief, or is it actual agnostic/athiest "there is no God but that's our convenient trumpeted Big Stick that lets us run things smoothly". I.e. We (Zach and Co.) don't have to believe, as long as everyone else believes and therefore obeys. OR -- Zach does believe, but his perspective on what constitutes carrying out God's will is filtered through his agenda/wishes, because of lack of direct contact with God. "It's all how you look at it." He wants the same thing God presumably wants, but he's not so concerned with whether he's going about it by God's design rather than his own.

Okay, now MY head hurts. :)

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[info]erinrua
2009-06-22 07:33 pm UTC (link)
Wow, Real Life gobbled me up! ;-) Anyhow, just wanted to say thank you for sharing in the thinky, and to offer a couple random thoughts of my own.

I tend to think without more evidence that they represent more the type of "a few bad apples in every barrel" than a group with enough numbers and influence to usurp Heaven itself. Castiel's group seem to be the majority, angels with faith who to the best of their knowledge are carrying out what they believe is God's will.
I agree. Zachariah's comment about keeping the truth from the troops strongly suggests an abuse of the chain of command, directly in order to keep the ordinary angle "grunts" from learning what's really going on. Angels, most angels, I believe are indeed "good," even the warriors like Castiel, and it's the few, stinky-in-the-barrel bad apples like Zach who are falling into the same trap of pride and disobedience that Lucifer did.

It will/would be interesting to learn whether Zachariah honestly thinks God has "left the building" and no longer cares, or if he, like Lucifer, simply feels he knows better and that his defiance is warranted in light of God's apparent hands-off policy, the last couple millenia. The cat's away, or something else? I hope we'll get a better sense of that, as it's an intriguing thing. Does Zach truly not fear God's wrath, or does he somehow feel they can pull one over while God's not looking? Or does he think since Armageddon is forecast for "someday," it's okay if he takes control and just moves the timeline up?

Hm. ;-) Yup, brain aching time, lol!

Is it September, yet?

(Also excellent points about the earlier conversation with Dean and Casey.)

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[info]blackcat333_99
2009-06-23 12:00 am UTC (link)
I vote for September. Right about... now.

I always enjoy your thinky in return, so thanks for playing back at ya. ;)

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